(72) Balanchine’s ‘Jewels’ with Bob Gottlieb: author, editor, and dance critic
As our final episode of 2017, we are saluting this year’s biggest ballet celebration, 50 years of George Balanchine’s “Jewels.” Today we take an in depth look at Balanchine's ‘Jewels' with Bob Gottlieb: author, editor, and dance critic. Bob has been editor-and-chief of Simon & Schuster, Alfred A. Knopf, and the New Yorker. Gottlieb is widely considered to be one of the greatest editors of the second half of the 20th century. For many years he was associated with the New York City Ballet during Balanchine’s time, often contributing to programming and serving on the Board of Directors. He currently sits on the Board of Trustees of Miami City Ballet. We always enjoy talking with Bob, and sometimes veer off topic, and in this case, around 45 minutes into this episode, our bun-head sides take over. Today we talk extensively with Bob about Balanchine’s process, the premier of Jewels, the original cast, and how the ballet is being danced today.
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TRANSCRIPT
This transcript was generated automatically. It’s accuracy may vary.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:00:00]:
I'm Rebecca King Ferraro.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:01:00]:
And I'm Michael Breeden, and you're listening to Conversations on Dance.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:01:05]:
Welcome to the last Conversations on Dance full format episode of 2017. Today we take an in depth look at Jewels with Bob Gottlieb, author, editor, and dance critic. Bob has been editor in chief of Simon & Schuster, Alfred A. Knopf and The New Yorker. Gottlieb is widely considered to be one of the greatest editors of the second half of the 20th century. For many years, he was associated with the New York City Ballet during Balanchine's time, often contributing to programming and serving on the board of directors. He currently sits on the board of trustees of Miami City Ballet. We always enjoy talking with Bob and sometimes veer off topic. And in this case, around 45 minutes into this episode, our bun head sides take over. Today we talk extensively with Bob about Balancine's process. Premiere of Jewels the original cast and how the ballet is being danced today.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:02:58]:
Bob, you've so graciously welcomed us into your home today. We're so happy to be here with you in person, but we'd like to start by kind of getting some background on how maybe you first met Balanchine and when you became more associated with him.
Bob Gottlieb [00:03:14]:
Well, when I was just 17, a millennium ago, a wonderful young teacher at my school, the only wonderful teacher in my school, and she lasted a year, took me to a matinee performance at the City Center of Ballet Society, and that was in the spring of 1948, and it was the week of the premiere of Orpheus. I was not at that. This was a mountaineer. And I had been to the ballet a number of times, but nothing had caught me, and Orpheus did it. It was my first look at Balanchine, and that was it for life. And that fall of 48, ballet Society morphed into the New York City Ballet, and I started college at Columbia, so I was here for the first four years and at the City Center morning, noon and night, except there were only performances on a couple of afternoons a night. But I would have been in there in the morning if I had been able to. I was just completely enraptured by Balanchine and everything he did and was, but I knew nothing about the world of ballet. I certainly didn't know anyone or had any interest in knowing there was gods up there. I was this little scruffy nerd who just loved it. And time went by. Time went by. I went to Cambridge, I came back. I was always going to City Ballet. And then at some point in my publishing career, I left Simon and Schuster, of which I'd been editor in chief, and went to run Alfred Akanth. And at some point, Martha Swope, the official photographer of New York City Valley, whom we knew I'd known forever for other reasons, called me and said that Lincoln Kirstein was thinking of writing a big book about New York City Ballet with her pictures from the later years and George Flatline's great pictures from the early years. Would I be interested? Yes, they came in. That was my first meeting with Lincoln. So we did that book, and it was wonderful to do, and it was fabulous. And then I worked with Lincoln on his beautiful Naginsky dancing book. That, again, was by this time, you can't say you were a friend of Lincoln's, because that was not what he was. But he was a great person, a charming, brilliant, wonderful man, and I was completely in awe of him. Probably the first and only man I've ever been completely in awe of, because balancing is something else. There's no point in having a personal feeling about Balanchine. And Lincoln then introduced me to George. But Lincoln was developing a new board of directors, separating out the New York city Ballet from the New York City Center board, and he asked me to be on it. And I explained that I couldn't raise money, and he said, no, I don't need you to raise money. I need you to be there at the crucial moment, because I have to have someone on that board who understands ballet and the company by which he meant the moment when Balanchine would no longer would die or would no longer be able to function. So I said, on that basis, fine. So I joined the board. Well, I'm not a board person. Boards put me off because they're well meaning people and we need them, but they're not knowledgeable. So I would attend meetings. But then one night, Betty Cage, the great company manager, had dinners every night. Every Monday night, she had dinners for Lincoln and his friends because they were very, very close, and I was very close to Betty, and I would be frequently at those dinners. And one night they were complaining about the fact that families were not coming to family matinees on Saturdays and Sundays. Neither of them had ever been a parent, maybe had never had ever seen a baby. I have no idea of a child. So I said, hey, you don't really think that parents are going to bring their children to see Booga coup? Lincoln whirled on me and said, you're interested in programming? Help Betty. So within six months, I was doing the programming of the New York City Ballet, which I went on doing for ten or twelve years through George, and for a number of years with Peter. And then I slowly, because nobody was in charge of marketing, took that over. Also, this was all from my offices, first at Knot and then at The New Yorker. So during that period, which, as you know, coming from a ballet company, there is a crisis every ten minutes. There were many, many crises, and some of them required Balanchine. And I was very involved. I was on the steering committee of the board of Direct, whatever it was. So I was constantly in his presence. Also, twice a year, as I was about to do the programming, because we had two seasons, I would have to ask him and Jerry Robbins what new ballets they were making, because you can't program if it says ballet by Balanchine. That does not tell you whether it's an open or a closer. Two people, 40 people who's in it. So I would go and talk to him, and he wasn't really very interested. He'd seen it all, he'd done it all. He'd say, you know, I think I make this, that maybe, I don't know. Jerry, of course, was fanatical, so then there would be moments I'd have to call him at home, there was a crisis, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So through those years, I spent a lot of time, I would say, next to him, with him is not accurate because he was impersonal. I don't mean he was unfriendly. He was the most courteous, polite, pleasant person. But I never felt I was with a human being with whom I had any connection. Why would I want it? What was I going to say to him, george, your ballets are great. I think it's ridiculous. So I would just be there. But what he was like was if you were standing next to him or sitting next to him, he would say what was on his mind. You happened to be next to him, so you heard it but twice during those years, toward the later part, once I remember it totally, I was backstage with him. Backstage. Left in the wings. Usually he was on the right. For some reason, we were on the left. Peter and Suzanne were dancing, and he said, you know, dear. Everyone was dear. I wasn't dear. You know, dear. It has to be Peter. He knows what a ballerina needs, meaning what a great partner he was. And he was the greatest partner ever. So I was completely absorbed into the New York City. I traveled with the company. I was at Saratoga with the company a couple of times. I was staying in the house that George was living in with Karen and her family. So that's my relationship with Balanchine. I was there to serve him. I don't think I ever had a meal with him. There was just nothing there personal there.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:10:24]:
The real reason that we want to talk to you today and we want to get your immense knowledge is to talk about Jewels, which is celebrating its 50th anniversary this year, and companies around the world are performing it. So we wanted to just start at the beginning with the idea for the ballet and how that kind of came about. And maybe when you first got wind of it.
Bob Gottlieb [00:10:41]:
Well, I only knew what everybody knew because in 1967, I had no connection to the company. I think the first dancer I ever met was Janet Reed, whom you wouldn't even remember, but she was a wonderful, wonderful dance. The original cast of Fancy Free.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:10:57]:
And Rebecca did her role.
Bob Gottlieb [00:10:59]:
Oh, really? It was so fun when Judy staged it.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:11:03]:
No, this was in more. Lordis coached it because Lord JP Ballet.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:11:08]:
Yeah, JP. Said it.
Bob Gottlieb [00:11:09]:
Yeah, but I didn't I didn't want to know ballet people. I mean, I had my world, they had their world. However, once I got involved, I so knew I knew everyone. But back in 1967, I didn't know anybody, so I knew this big thing was company coming, and it seemed so odd, and there was a lot of fuss, made a lot of publicity about the Jewels, and he went to Van Cleef and Arpels and got excited by Jewels. Who knows? Who knows who said it? He may have said it. Lincoln may have said it. I can't imagine the publicity department said it because they were as incompetent as you can. It was unrun. See, the New York City Valley was at that point was still a mom and pop store. That's why someone on the outside was able yes, was still oh, later than that, really. When I got involved, it was because of that, because the management had aged. Nobody knew was in. Everyone was exhausted. Betty wasn't interested in programming anymore. George had seen it all.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:12:11]:
Lincoln was more were you first involved? What year was it that you first became involved with the company?
Bob Gottlieb [00:12:16]:
Well, it must have been around 72 or three or four, something like that. So I was around, I guess, for the last ten years of Georgia's life. So Jules was this big event. So I had bought my tickets. Not for the opening. I didn't go to opening. What did I know from openings? But for the first week. So I saw it first in its first week. The reception was very complicated because there were those who thought it was great. There were those who thought it was a glitzy audience trap but that it really had no validity. Although they liked this better than there's a lot of talk about which one do you prefer? This one's. The greatest. Not that one. I love Rubies. I love diamonds. Emeralds is boring. Emeralds is divine. There was a lot of that. The reviews were good. Clive Barnes was crazy about it and he was the chief reviewer for The New York Times at that point. And that was true throughout the world. When it opened. Mostly, though, it was an audience hit and tickets were hard to get. It was one of the company's big hits. The first big hit was Firebird. That made the company popular. Until then, nobody came but the elite. Firebird was a hit. And then there was Nutcracker and there was this, there was that. But Jules was a tremendous hit. Later came Vienna Waltz. Another huge hit. Dancers at a Gathering, another huge hit. So when I saw it, the performances were so great that it was very hard to I wasn't a critic, I didn't think critically. I just said Jules was ravishingly beautiful and the music was so beautiful. I didn't know that music it was without the coda at that time. The ending with the seven people and the boys kneeling, that didn't exist at that time. But Violet was so brilliant, so charming, so elegant. A quality that has left our shores, by the way. Rubies, of course, was Eddie and Patty at their greatest. They were sublime. They were so wonderful together. We'll go back to what Rubies should be. And Pat Niri was wonderful as the second girl. And then Diamonds was the apotheosis of Suzanne. And Jacques was her partner, and he was a wonderful partner. But it was not about him. It was about her. And he created this for her. So here was this fabulous success and the years went by and it held its own. It didn't vanish the way some hits vanish because it had so much substance. So then it went through many, many casts. None of them ever approached the first cast. The most interesting thing about that is that while that was the company, when it was Suzanne and then Peter and Patty and Eddie Violet and other wonderful dancers, everyone assumed that when those people were gone, no one could replace Suzanne because she was so great and so unique and so glorious. What happened was that the roles that he created on her, particularly Diamonds, were classical to a large extent, which meant that they could be danced in different ways by different people. So that we've had many wonderful dancers in Diamonds, none of them Suzanne, but with a few exceptions, who will be nameless, everyone who did it was up to the job and made a presentable and convincing Diamonds girl.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:16:16]:
Even when in Balanchine Sheen's lifetime, he had because Suzanne left the company, he had oh, yes, kay Meryl and allegra all dancing, all very different dancers.
Bob Gottlieb [00:16:25]:
Totally different and all of them very good. What turned out impossible what turned out to be impossible was replacing Patricia McBride. Not just in ruby's. Her roles have been the hardest roles to fill properly. Think about who cares? For years and years and years, we had a succession of girls doing Patty's role, perfectly good dancers. They just didn't have it. He took her, he took what he always did was he took the qualities of the dancer he wanted to use and created the role out of those qualities. He didn't do what Jerry did, which is to create a role and then shove you into it and make you hue to the original even when you weren't capable of it. Right. So Rubies and there have been excellent dancers in it, giving their all, as all our dancers do, with a couple of exceptions, no one ever came close to Paddy.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:17:31]:
Did Balanchine ever cast anyone else in that role while he was alive?
Bob Gottlieb [00:17:35]:
I don't remember. Oh, yes. There was a hilarious thing he did. I think there were only two roles that he didn't cast Farrell in, if they were even remotely possible for her and she wanted to do Who Cares?
Michael Sean Breeden [00:17:51]:
I know she did who Cares, right? There's a crochet review of it.
Bob Gottlieb [00:17:54]:
Yeah, she did it in she did it in he let her finally, he just she nagged, I guess, so much he said yes, and it was horrifying. I mean, she was totally she saw that right away and that was the end of that. So she was one person who did it when he was there because he allowed it to happen. And there probably were others. I just don't remember because remember, I wasn't going every see, I would go to the ballet then either with Arlene Crochet, because she was a critic. I wasn't a critic until I got involved with the company programming and marketing. I just went I paid it for a ticket. I didn't have much money, or I'd go with Lincoln. So I was with Lincoln many, many times, but it wasn't all the time. Once I was involved, I had to really know what was going on day to day, because you can't program unless you understand what the ballets are, how they might fit together, and what dancers are here, what dancers are there, what they can do. So I didn't see everybody do everything until later, probably the mid 70s. By then. I was seeing everybody do everything. So that was what happened. Rubies never was a satisfactory, and nobody was ever Eddie. And nobody since then has understood, in my view, what those two people are doing on that stage.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:19:27]:
What is that?
Bob Gottlieb [00:19:28]:
Well, they are in a love, hate, adoring, complicit rivalry, carrying on, being glamorous, being heady, being provocative, egging each other on. It was just an extraordinary partnership, everything they did together. And now you see people who don't. Well, if we can go to this recent thing where the three world companies did jewels at the Coke Theater I hate to say Coke Theater, State Theater.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:20:03]:
You don't have to. It's our it's our podcast. We can say what we want.
Bob Gottlieb [00:20:08]:
You remember the Paris Ballet? Did emeralds. They did all the emeralds and the rubies and the diamonds were shared by the Bolshe and City and New York City Ballet. The girl who did Rubies and the boy who did Rubies simply didn't have a clue as to what it was. I don't know who staged it, and I don't want to know for them. But the Russians, somebody must have said the word syncopation to them. I don't think they knew what it meant. They certainly didn't grasp the music. And these two people were up on that stage, neither a particularly good dancer. They didn't even acknowledge each other's existence. They were not in the same ballet. They weren't in any ballet. They weren't on the same stage. It was so terrible that it was a disgrace. It was the worst performance, I think, of a major Balanchine ballet that I've ever seen, and I've seen plenty.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:21:09]:
I think it's interesting that someone like Patty, what can happen to her roles is they can either veer into cuteness or vulgarity.
Bob Gottlieb [00:21:20]:
We've seen both.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:21:21]:
Both qualities I don't think were really present in Patty. It's so funny that they would go that way.
Bob Gottlieb [00:21:27]:
The best one I've seen. I don't know that anyone agrees since recently. It was Lauren lovett. She's an interesting dance.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:21:34]:
She's been on the podcast.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:21:35]:
She has.
Bob Gottlieb [00:21:36]:
And she was very, very good in it. Now, when it came to Diamonds, the Russians produced a girl of such greatness. She was like nobody can decide whether she was 17 or 18. This must have been her first major appearance in a major role. And it was certainly her first diamonds from the moment I was with Lords, lords and I were together. From the moment she was on the stage, we were in ecstasy. She didn't look like Suzanne, but she had the quality. She was young, she was innocent, she was glamorous, she was musical, she was technical, she was lyrical, she was grand, she was everything. She sailed through it and got stronger and stronger. We were both obviously, when we checked with each other afterwards, we were terrified that it was going to collapse in some way. Not at all. And we could see the director of the bolstery was sitting a few piles in front of us and we could see at the beginning he was nervous, he was sort of hitting us. And then you could see him relax because it had pulled off. And not only was she wonderful in Diamonds, but the core was wonderful because our core has been doing it forever. And I don't think they feel this is the height of their career and they are competent, the girls are great, but it's not a thrill to them to be doing it right. And the same with the Demis, whereas the Bolshevi girl, they were so happy. And, you know, that can get tiresome. The first part of Diamonds, before the principals arrived, there wasn't a moment that I wasn't completely invested in it. So that was thrilling. But the Rubies a disaster because you can do what you can do. Diamonds is Russian. It's Russian music, it's Russian style, it's grand style. They know what to do, rubies, they don't have a clue. And you can't send a coach over for six weeks or whatever and teach them Balancine's style and Stravinsky's style in a few weeks and teach them the ballet.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:23:57]:
Right.
Bob Gottlieb [00:23:57]:
It takes a long time. Now, Emeralds, I hated what the Paris Oprah did, but I don't like the Paris Oprah style. And I live a lot in Paris, so I've seen more of them than most people would have seen. They're so deliberate, they're so grand. Here am I about to show you my beautiful Arabesque, and then they show it to you. And then they do the next thing that they show. One girl was good, the rest was just all point. They were making points. It was horrible.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:24:35]:
So which ballet do you think has kind of evolved the most over time? Or what have these ballets evolutions been like? What's missing since the original Emeralds?
Bob Gottlieb [00:24:49]:
Emeralds can work for different companies in different ways. Violet was unique. No one is ever going to look like her. But that's all right, because that role can be done in other ways. We've done it well. We're doing it well now. I've seen the rehearsals. We have several very good people in it. Rubies is the hardest because for all the reasons I was saying, and you can do it this way, you can do it that way, we'll see.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:25:33]:
I think it's interesting because rubies is more or less the only one of the three that is commonly performed in its own right. So it's the most fragile, and yet it's the most commonly done.
Bob Gottlieb [00:25:43]:
Well, it's not the most fragile. It's the most difficult in the sense in that sense of style.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:25:49]:
Sure. Okay.
Bob Gottlieb [00:25:50]:
Emeralds is the most fragile because if you don't have the atmosphere of emeralds, it's gone.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:25:56]:
Let's talk about emeralds for a second, because I think emeralds is unlike any ballet in the camp, and it's always.
Bob Gottlieb [00:26:01]:
Been my favorite of the it's my.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:26:03]:
Favorite of good taste.
Bob Gottlieb [00:26:04]:
Good taste. You can't do without it, but I.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:26:08]:
Think it's an unusual opener, and I don't know everyone knew it, right?
Bob Gottlieb [00:26:12]:
Violet knew it. She said she said it's a difficult opener. It's dreamy. Well, that's not what you expect. It's mysterious. There's no bang bang. There's no juice in that sense.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:26:29]:
No beat.
Bob Gottlieb [00:26:29]:
It points. It's not that, but it's ravishingly beautiful. And when he improved it by adding the coder and another, he added something.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:26:39]:
Else revealette in the path with Viela.
Bob Gottlieb [00:26:43]:
When it's done well, it's ravishingly beautiful, and it holds the audience, even though they're not sure why they're being held. Rubies can work for an audience, no matter how vulgar it is, because they don't know it's vulgar. They think that's what it is. Right. And diamonds, well, the ending is so grand. How can you not go out of the theater soaring? And those polonnaises that he did again, they're just great. And when it was Farrell and Anjac, he was wonderful in it. And then Pharrell and Martin's, there was nothing like it remembered. You never saw him, of course. Peter.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:27:25]:
Peter? No, I wasn't born when he retired.
Bob Gottlieb [00:27:27]:
You weren't born? You were born too late. Well, you know what he was like as a partner in diamonds. There would be Suzanne doing what she was doing, and then suddenly an arm would be stretched from nowhere, from nine yards away, and it would be on her waist and give her just what she needed. And then she wasn't interested in it, but it was fabulously beautiful. And in the walking part, they were just so beautiful together, and they were both very beautiful. You don't get a couple like that all the time, so it's never been the same, but it's been wonderful. And with this Russian girl, I wish you'd seen that. She was something.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:28:15]:
So this is a ballet that's so commonly referred to. So many people will talk about this first cast, talk about Suzanne and diamonds, or I'm learning Violet's part and emeralds, that sort of thing. So do you feel like sometimes dancers get hung up a little bit trying to emulate this first cast?
Bob Gottlieb [00:28:32]:
I wish they would. I don't think they don't. Now, what's interesting is Maria Karowski, who's very beautiful herself, very grand in her look, her look, her configuration, her plastique is the closest to Pharrell's. She looks like Pharrell when she does the movements. I can immediately see Pharrell. You can see, oh, this ballet was made on Suzanne Farrell. Other people who may dance it as well. You don't see that at all. Sarah Merns dances it very well, but she dances it as if she's in Sean Lake. She doesn't dance it. She in no way resembles Suzanne. So to watch Karowski is to see a sketch of Pharaoh. And she's gotten better and better, and she looked so strong and with those legs. But she was not a strong dancer at the beginning. Her back was weak. She'd had the look, but she didn't have the confidence or the strength. The opposite of a dancer like Ashley Bowder, who came on with more confidence than anyone needs. Wonderful dancer in many ways. But if you want to get a sense of Farrell without looking at Farrell tapes, to look at Maria Karowski shows you what she was like. Maria Karowski is not as great a dancer as Suzanne Farrell. But who is?
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:30:12]:
Who is that's true?
Michael Sean Breeden [00:30:15]:
Yeah. You know, I wanted to talk if we want to go back to the beginning, go to Emeralds. Why do you think Balanchine chose that specific? Right. He put it together because it's not.
Bob Gottlieb [00:30:28]:
Just it's not one piece from different.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:30:30]:
Operas and different incidental music was clearly on his mind.
Bob Gottlieb [00:30:34]:
Well, you know, he was very connected to France. Remember, his Diagula years were spent in France. They were located down there. And his French was very good. It was Diagula found him in France, so he lived there and he had connections there, and he made a number of French ballets. When he decided to do Jewels, it was clear that if he was going to do three styles of ballet, they were going to be the three basic styles french, Russian and American. Because although we all know it came from Italy, but there's no Italian style of ballet. There was just a lot of technique. So, French, what was he going to do? Well, he obviously always loved foray's music. And, you know, with him, one of the amazing things was he had things in his mind that he wanted to do or thought of doing, and then he would do them. And if he couldn't do them this year because he didn't have the dances or he didn't have the money or it didn't fit the repertory, he would do it next year. And if he didn't do it next year, he'd do it 20 years later, like Midsummer.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:31:55]:
Right. That took him that many years.
Bob Gottlieb [00:31:57]:
Many, many years. But this was true of many things. So I believe, I imagine that he was listening to foray and thinking of Foray throughout his life. Sure, the opportunity came, now I can do Foray. So he sat at the piano. As you know, he worked on all the music because he was an expert pianist, trained pianist. He sat there putting foray pieces together, choosing this, choosing. That choosing the other choosing that. So he was ready. He had it in his head. He didn't go into the studio like some choreographers we will not mention who don't know what they're doing or why they're king it. And somebody said, Why don't you use this piece of vorjack? They say, okay, I'll do that. It wasn't like that. He was ready for everything. And he knew his dancers. Remember, he brought violet verde from he brought France to the New York City Ballet. The company was at a low point when Violet arrived.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:32:52]:
That was right after Tanny contracted polio.
Bob Gottlieb [00:32:56]:
Tall Chief was finished, and he was depressed. It was not strong. And I remember a whole period when things were not great, and there have been so many such periods. And what did he do? He brought envelope. Verdi a great not only a star, but a charmer, and someone on whom he could make different king of roles, which was what he was always looking for. Allegra he knew what to do with, and he knew what she could do. And of course, he worshipped her dancing and made these amazing roles out of her. But he needed brio, he needed style, elegance. That's not what he was going to get from allegra. So my view as an audience member who knew nothing and who had no connection, I felt at that time, this woman about whom I knew nothing, has rescued the company at this moment, the way when Suzanne left, Patty rescued the company. So he had her. So he had foray in his head, I'm sure he had Violet. Hey, way to go. And in Mimi Paul, he had a very beautiful girl whom he could create a different kind of thing from. He had a wonderful partner for Violet in Conrad Ludlow, who was a wonderful partner for everybody, so why not go for it? And that's why we got Emeralds. Now, had Violet Verdi not been brought into the company, we would not have had Emeralds, because he couldn't have found someone to make that feeling from. So he the thing about George was above everything else, he was practical. That's what I learned from my years of service to him. I remember if I called him about to I tried never to do interrupt him at home, but there were three or four times when something had to be decided right away. And if I called and said, George, we have a problem, he perked up. He loved solving problems, so give him a problem. He was a happy man. Of course, he always did solve it in 2 seconds. The opening night of the Chaikovsky Festival the opening night of the Chaikovsky Festival was in peril because during the day, when this Philip Johnson cubes, plastic cubes, were put in for the first time and the lights were shown on them, they started to smell. No one knew they would do that. And the theater was rank.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:35:36]:
Oh, no.
Bob Gottlieb [00:35:37]:
Also, one of them fell and almost hit a stage hand, missed him by 2ft. And I happened to leave my office, for whatever reason. I wanted to go up, look in the theater, see what was going on. So I was just sitting there, and the smell was considerable. Still, this was afternoon. Nobody knew what was happening. Nobody knew what was going to happen with these cubes. It was hysteria. What was George Balanchine doing? He couldn't help with the cubes. He couldn't help with the smell. He couldn't concert. He was sitting in the orchestra adjusting Meryl Ashley's tiara for Swan Lake. He wasn't happy with it. And he sat there with her for, I don't know, 20 minutes, half an hour, trying this, trying that, trying the other, until he had it the way he wanted it. So what was he doing? There was one problem he could fix. So he fixed it, see? So all the talk about inspiration. He didn't believe in inspiration. He believed in, here's the job, get it done. Because remember when Diaglev hired him in 1924, it was mostly to make opera, ballets. He had to throw on ballets for Carmen, ballets for Taisse, ballets for anything in ten minutes. And he did it. That's what he said was make work. He loved it. And the dancers, because he didn't take 3 hours waiting for inspiration, he'd say, oh, we're doing this. Okay, you go there. It was done. It was a problem to solve. He solved it.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:37:13]:
I love that. I think that's a great story.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:37:16]:
I wanted to touch upon something we had brought up, you brought up a little bit ago about him creating additional sections in Emeralds. Do you know what inspired him to bring that later on?
Bob Gottlieb [00:37:31]:
I assume he felt that the ballet wasn't finished, that he had more to say, and that there was more foray that he wanted to say. And you remember, before the coda, emeralds ends with one of those. Everybody's there smiling, and it looks like a finale closer. And in fact, as you will remember, everybody starts applauding as if it was the end of the ballad. And conductors and the dancers sort of had to learn, try to learn how to do it so the audience isn't on its way up the aisle. But he didn't want to end this is my guess. I've certainly never discussed such a thing with him. My guess is that he didn't want to end Emeralds with a splash because it is not like that, right? It's sad, it's melancholic, it's nostalgic, it's beautiful. He wanted to end on that note. And so finally the time came. He had the time, he had the dances. They were bringing it back. He did it. That was that. And here's a horrible story. I happened to be in St. Petersburg the first time, the cure of now. Yes, the first time the cure of now. Again. The MARIANSKI. But not then. Did emeralds did jewels and I was there and they did it without the coda.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:39:06]:
That's so bad.
Bob Gottlieb [00:39:08]:
I was beside myself.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:39:10]:
Who said it, I wonder.
Bob Gottlieb [00:39:11]:
I can tell you, but I'm not sure I want to. But when I got back to town, I called Barbara Horgan, who was then still running the balance sheet trust, and I said, what is going on here? They did it without the coda. Did you allow that? She said no. I said, well, who did that? This is an outrage. She said, well, here's who did it. So I called this person and said she said, well, there really wasn't time. The dances, they didn't know how to do Balanchine and they were doing nobody could really cope, so I just left it out. I was not amused.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:39:53]:
If you could see our faces right now.
Bob Gottlieb [00:39:55]:
Another emerald story. This is well, I wasn't there for this, but Gurgyev runs everything. He is the Napoleon of Russian art. And he was scheduled to be conducting and he was rushing back from wherever he was and he was late. So they started Emeralds and he arrived and he wanted to conduct it, so he stopped it and he mounted the podium and started it from scratch.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:40:36]:
That's insane. Can you imagine, as a dancer? What if you had done your variation?
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:40:40]:
Yeah, you have to do it again.
Bob Gottlieb [00:40:41]:
That's ego.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:40:43]:
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's captured in that documentary where they do the first ballet. This is when New York City Ballet is on tour to Russia, do the first ballet, then he disappears for 60 minutes, a 60 minutes intermission. And it was because he and he had taken the whole orchestra with him to rehearse middle of the performance. Oh, my God. Comes back 60 minutes later. Hey.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:41:07]:
Oh, my gosh.
Bob Gottlieb [00:41:08]:
Now, I wasn't that performance, so I can't sean that it took place, but it was told me soon after the event.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:41:15]:
Wow.
Bob Gottlieb [00:41:16]:
So emeralds. There it is. But it remains very beautiful. And I think City Ballet does it well now, and Miami does it well now. But we'll see.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:41:27]:
I've only seen the rehearsals, so we're going to switch gears. Just like in the ballet. There's a big stark contrast, obviously, to Rubies. So what do you think sets Rubies apart in terms of ballets that Balanchine did to Stravinsky music?
Bob Gottlieb [00:41:44]:
Well, for me, the word that describes it best is jaunty, and I don't know that there are I'm trying to think the other Stravinsky ballets. You certainly can't think there are parts of violin concerto that are jaunty ish the walking. He always said they were like waiters going back, but that's not its quality, really? No. I don't think he ever made another ballet out of Stravinsky that's like that. He did a Jadecard at some point. I can't even remember he did it.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:42:27]:
That was in the because I never saw that.
Bob Gottlieb [00:42:33]:
I don't think so. Because he didn't have Patty and Eddie then. See, he starts with the music. What music does he want to eat? This is my guess. That was always first and foremost in his head. But then if he's thinking of a ballet to specific music that he loves, he's thinking, I can do it if I have the dancers. So then he can do Rubies because A, he loves the music, but B, he has Patty and Eddie. It's like Violet and emeralds and it's like Suzanne and Diamonds. I don't think we would have had jewels. Did he not have those principles? Because he wouldn't have made those ballets out of anyone else who was there at that time.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:43:22]:
Right, yeah. It's really interesting that you I think that's something we know about balancing his practicality, but it's the underlying bit of almost every story. He wanted to do Sleeping Beauty for so many years, but he could never recreate some sort of effect that he.
Bob Gottlieb [00:43:39]:
Well, he felt the stage couldn't do it. He couldn't have people come. I talked to him about Sleeping Beauty many times as a marketer and program because I felt very strongly what did I know? I'm this publisher and editor, but I'm telling him what to do with the New York City Ballet. It was ludicrous, but I remember a long conversation and I said, nutcracker anchors the fall season, but we don't have that for the spring. Sean and the spring season was always harder to sell because people were away, the audience wasn't as there. Once we had subscriptions, which was when I was doing it, there was a stability to a large part of the audience, but the rest of the audience was not as stable as it was in the winter, in the fall. So I said, what would do? It would be Sleeping Beauty. Of course, I knew that he worshipped the music, as who Does Not? And he would say, no, because the stage we don't have the trap doors, we don't have this, we don't have that. I think he was not going to tell me what his other reasons were. He did the one thing, the Garland Wall. He did the Garland walls from which you can infer an entire Sleeping Beauty. It's still better than anything else that anybody else does, which is why Peter so properly and intelligently incorporated it into his own Swan Lake. And we've seen many other Garland dances from other companies. There's nothing like it, you know, that's what it was. That's the spirit. That's what Sleeping Beauty was. So he just didn't do it. But he made his own Sleeping Beauty in 1947, and that was called Theme and Variations because that's where you have the sense of Sleeping Beauty. Just as for me, Ballet Imperial has that of Sean Lake.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:45:55]:
You don't think the diamonds I think.
Bob Gottlieb [00:45:57]:
There'S a lot of Sean Lake in Diamonds, yes, but it isn't Swan Lake in the way that Them and Variations is sleeping Beauty for me, sure.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:46:10]:
Yeah. Let's talk about diamonds a little bit, then, because I do think that sometimes that Swan Lakeish quality can be you mentioned Sarah Murray. Do you think that that's overemphasized now? Did Balanchine? He would never say that, right?
Bob Gottlieb [00:46:25]:
No. Unlike Jerry Robbins, he was happy to see wonderful dancers find their own way of doing roles. He never tried to shoebox anybody into the way Suzanne did it, or the way this person did it, or that person did it. I suspect he knew everything, but he had a feeling. Look what he did with Meryl. Now, Meryl Ashley, this incredibly dynamic allegro dancer, she was a phenomenon. My view of Meryl, who I like very much and always gotten along with extremely well, she started first you saw her feet, then you saw, this is over the years. Then her legs came in, then her body came in, then her head came in. But she was essentially an allegro genius. That's, as we see from Bala del Regina, there's no other dancer could have done that. That's a perfect example of where he can make the ballet he wants to make, because he finally has the dancer who can do it. Well, at some point, he put Meryl into Emeralds. And I remember thinking what? This is against her qualities. I don't understand it. Why is he putting her because she was doing diamonds. Why is he putting her in emeralds? And I believe that he was putting her in emeralds to prepare her for Swan Lake. That's my view. To soften her, to let her grow more lyrical, more expansive than more attacky. So that's the way he had a view of dancers, of how he could nurture them and grow them from this into that. And indeed, there are dancers who can do that and there are dancers who can't do that. I mean, Kiera Nichols, who was in the company when he was still there, but he never created she was too young to have anything created on her by him. But Kira, the strongest dancer who ever lived, sort of implacably solid, doing all the nut, crunching roles. Time went by. Time went by and she understood that it was, eroding I'm inferring this. I never spoke to her about it and I thought, what is going to become of her? Well, somehow Kira had the dance intelligence to become a dramatic dancer. There was a wonderful famous piece that Arlene Crochet wrote about her in her youth, saying, when is the Sleeping Beauty going to wake up? Because Arlene, at that point, saw her as a solid dancer as well as a solid dancer. I never dreamed that she become a dramatic dancer. And she found a way and her later years were secured by that. And she was intelligent. She withdrew from roles. She didn't kick and scream the way certain ballerinas do when they have to give up a role. She found other things to do. So her career was extended and she had injuries, she had this, she had that doesn't matter. But it was an amazing career. That's another thing. There are great, great dancers who do great things, but something their careers go awry in one way or another or they end too precipitously. She had a great career. It was shaped by her dancing tones. Patty had a great career. She was rarely injured and she did everything she could do everything, more or less everything. Other dancers, Allegra's career. Allegra is the greatest dancer as Patty or Suzanne, but Allegra, as you've read her book, she went her way. She didn't want to do that. She wanted to have three children. Fine. She had her plan for her life. So her career was an interrupted career was career interruptus. Now, what more he might have done with her and for her? We don't know.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:51:12]:
This might be a little bit of a detour, but I wanted to talk about dancer versatility because you brought up, of course, just now you said Allegra could do everything. And then when we were talking about Meryl, I remembered in my head that in her book she speaks of I believe at that point she was the only person to ever do a principle in all three ballads emeralds, rubies and diamonds. Albeit she only did rubies as a throw on and never did it again. But it's something that's been striking me more recently, how things get very typecast and specific. Caleric has to be an Amazon. Elekra Kent did it right after Tanny. She's five. One or two square dance has to be a compact technician. Meryl was tall. Do you think that we've kind of pigeonholed ourselves a little bit in terms of casting?
Bob Gottlieb [00:52:08]:
I think it happens naturally. But also I think two things can change or affect it. One, an artistic director with vision about dances. And two, necessity. I don't have anybody for diamonds. All right, Michael, you're on. There's nobody else. Sorry. So you go on, you slip into your toe shoes, which you've never been in.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:52:39]:
Yeah, I'm ready. I know the part, seen it enough.
Bob Gottlieb [00:52:43]:
And then it sticks. I think some things that happen are that dance and Balanchine was very, very loyal to his dancers. He didn't do what another artistic director might do. He didn't say, okay, she's no longer very good in this out. I'm replacing her with this gorgeous 20 year old. He was loyal to them, and therefore we saw things happen that should not have happened. And you don't think he knew it? He knew everything, right? We don't know anything. He knew everything. And it made for weaknesses in performance. There were dancers who just went on too long, including some of the greatest ones. Patty was not at her strongest when she left. Jacques certainly wasn't. And others, too. Karin, whom he was very close to personally. They went on dancing in certain roles longer than we. The audience were happy or we, the critics. However, that was not his problem. These people had given him their lives and he returned that in the appropriate ways. And then there would be moments. This is my interpretation. One of his greatest ballets, many of us feel, is Liba Sidovalza. And you know what it is. Four couples. It was a long slog before the audience took to it. But that doesn't matter. He didn't care. And by a certain time, it was fabulously cast. Patty, Suzanne, et cetera. Then Suzanne left. So he put Karen in her role. Fine. Five years go by. Six years go by. And now Suzanne is back. Now, this is the point at which I'm doing the programming and all I want in life is to see Libus Leader back on our stage and nobody else does it at that time. So I would say, oh, George, maybe this is the season we could do Liba Cedar. And he'd say, you know, dear, can't do. And he said, you know, need wonderful singers. And I'd say, oh, well, you know, there are wonderful singers. He said, you know, too expensive. Betty will say, can't afford singers. I said I said, I personally will raise the money for this. It went it was a farce, but I didn't understand what was going on, right? So then after George died, peter brought back Libus leader. And I was talking to some very wise person who was close to him and I was saying, Just explain this to me. And she said, well, it's very simple. He couldn't take it away from Karen and he couldn't not give it to Suzanne. Practical. Don't do it. He wasn't dying to see it again. We were dying to see it again. So those are the things that happen. Then there was the fabulous moment when Misha Barishnikov joined the company. Suddenly, there he was, the greatest dancer, probably of all time, entering the City Ballet repertory, knowing that he was probably too old not old to be a great he went on being a sublime dancer, but too old to adjust his body to Balanchine technique. But suddenly all these cast changes. That's why you got certain pieces when he was doing oh, gosh, there Goes My brain. It's why Yvonne Bore, did she do Harlequin on with it was I don't know if it was Harlequin. No, he did Patty.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:56:52]:
Okay?
Bob Gottlieb [00:56:54]:
It was some ballet that they needed a and they and they gave it to her.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:56:59]:
I thought it was Duo, actually.
Bob Gottlieb [00:57:01]:
It was what?
Michael Sean Breeden [00:57:02]:
Duo.
Bob Gottlieb [00:57:03]:
It could have been Duo.
Michael Sean Breeden [00:57:04]:
It may have been Duo. I remember it in I think, if I remember, because Kay was no longer bio big written out did Duo with Misha.
Bob Gottlieb [00:57:13]:
Yvonne also had connections to the company. Her mother had been in the company. Her mother had taught her, jerry knew her, et cetera. But that's how her career started into some kind of large trajectory. So it's different in every case. Allegra just turned up. That was it. She came on the stage 16 or 17, I remember, and you could not take your eyes off her. And the same had been true of Tanny, and the same was true of Suzanne, but the same was not true of a number of other dancers who had to work and get there. They were the chosen ones. And it starts with New York City Ballet. Tal Chief was already a dancer. He was retraining her. She started as Tanny, of course, was in the school. And so she was already dancing for Ballet Society when she was 1617. But it was clear, you looked at her. There was nobody else on stage, and nobody has ever reproduced her. Her roles are impossible to fill. No one has ever looked in them the way she did. Lavalis. I saw it again this weekend. You know, it's sorry just doesn't go down. Patty was good in it. Suzanne was good in it. Other people did it. It's never had that elegant French perfection. Allegra was a chosen one. Suzanne was a chosen one. Darcy was a chosen one. You looked at her, that was it. That's all it's needed. You looked at her, she was ready. And he gave her everything when she was twelve years old, 1718. Others know Meryl was a case in point. Kira was in case in point. That took time.
Rebecca King Ferraro [00:59:14]:
As we're talking about this, I'm wondering kind of what the common denominator was with all of these amazing dancers all being at the same place at the same time. And we hear so often that Balanchine was kind of a man, a few words. So there wasn't so much coaching going on in terms of feel this. It was kind of more understood in the movement. So what do you feel the common denominator was? Was it just his understanding of how.
Bob Gottlieb [00:59:38]:
To make that was his understanding of what was inside a dancer that could be brought out through his choreography by the right roles and the right nurturing and the right club. Remember, it was a joke. Suzanne was not I want to get this right. I think it was suzanne was not a Bereter. And so for months, that's what they did the class in Beret. They did beret in class. Suzanne was special. He never treated anyone the way he treated her. But he knew what was there. Now, there may also be a question of affinity. There may have been dancers with just as much capacity whom he just didn't feel like that, feel like there was nothing in that dancer at that time in his life that called to him. Because he was always like all choreographers, looking for muses. And if the right muse came along, he was there. But if it was the wrong muse, he didn't recognize her as a muse. Note that we're always saying she right, because men that was not the way it was.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:00:59]:
Of course, he was never going to use men in the same capacity that he did women. But it is interesting that in particular with Jules, with Rubies, edward is as much imprinted on the ballet as those women.
Bob Gottlieb [01:01:15]:
Absolutely. Totally.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:01:17]:
Even though Balanchine he made it very clear, it can't be any clearer than Valley of Woman, he still could bring out immense quality.
Bob Gottlieb [01:01:30]:
And he did wonderful things for men, and he understood their value. Remember in the early days, the first days, there weren't any men. There was Francisco Moncion, and there was.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:01:46]:
Come on, Magalanis.
Bob Gottlieb [01:01:47]:
What? Nikki nicki Magalanus. And then he had a glevsky for classical dancers, a highly trained Russian dancer. Remember Balanchine came in. He didn't want Russian dancers, but he didn't have any choice. He needed a classical dancer. Was wonderful. And then there was the ill fated attempts with Eric Brune. They didn't work out. Eric Brune didn't like it and he didn't like it. But Eric Brune was still the greatest poet in the Sanombula I've ever seen. Now remember again, speaking of that, that Balanchine was in Denmark for a long time when Tanny was recuperating, and he did a lot of work for that. And he staged Anambula for the Danish ballet. So no wonder Eric it was in the tradition of Eric Brun, and he used, as you know, many Danish dancers, or Danish trained dancers up to Peter and beyond. So he made use of what was there and he found what he needed, and it was always changing. Why he changed certain ballets, I don't know. Sometimes you feel and then you hear stories that there were highly specific personal reasons. As with putting on the end of Foray because of Emeralds, who knows? For instance, we know that he very much liked Kaligari, who was there when he died, of course. And I think her career would have been vastly different. It's not that Peter didn't admire her, but that he understood her in a certain way because she came into the company and within two minutes he was putting in roles which she then wasn't really able to do. She had to come back and relearn. But he saw something in her that would have been thrilling had he been there while she blossomed. Look what happened with Gelsey. No more brilliant dancer ever turned up on the stage of the New York City Ballet. She was beyond anything. Technically, she was perfect. Perfect. Technically. She didn't want it. She wanted to do Sleeping Beauty with Misha. She didn't want it. She didn't want him.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:04:30]:
I wanted to bring up something that apparently some fuss was made about during the premiere, that Jules was the first full length non narrative right ever.
Bob Gottlieb [01:04:41]:
We heard it a million times.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:04:42]:
I can't imagine having been a selling point. I don't think that was going to bring out audiences in droves. But do you think that there's actually something that connects the Three ballads?
Bob Gottlieb [01:04:52]:
I do.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:04:52]:
Okay.
Bob Gottlieb [01:04:54]:
I think the first thing that connects the three ballads? Now you're talking to a programmer. Remember, I'm an instinctive and very experienced programmer, if I do say so myself, and others have said it, so I can say it. They go together. They are three ballets that are a great program that counts for a lot, because how many programs have you seen at New York City Ballet that were not great programs?
Michael Sean Breeden [01:05:25]:
Can't count on both hands, that's for sure. That's right.
Bob Gottlieb [01:05:28]:
We didn't have those, and I don't think we have them in Miami. So it was a great program. Also, there are certain elements that are connected, like walking. There's a lot of walking through that.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:05:46]:
That's true.
Bob Gottlieb [01:05:47]:
Through those three ballads. And although he said himself, it's not about jewels, they just look, you know, they're jewels. Yeah, it's not about jewels. But the fact that there is a jewel element in the costuming, certainly that makes them cohesive without pounding it into your brain. I do not like rubies as much when it's not nestled between emeralds and diamonds. Diamonds more so works for me, because we've seen that on its own various times, but I don't really like it on its own, and I certainly wouldn't want to see emeralds on its own. They go together, and he knew that, too. So, yes, they are three separate ballets, but for me, they are also one ballet, and they will always be one ballet.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:06:49]:
Do you think there's one element in particular about this ballet that has made it last so well for 50 years and made audiences still want to see it?
Bob Gottlieb [01:06:57]:
Whenever three great ballets that'll do it?
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:07:00]:
It's true.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:07:01]:
Whenever we ask people favorite ballet, because usually we'll do this bit at the end where we go through and ask answers fast questions what's your favorite ballet? What's the role that got away, et cetera. And the easiest cop out is Jewels, because you get all three great ballets that I would pick myself.
Bob Gottlieb [01:07:21]:
It's not my favorite Balanchine ballet.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:07:24]:
What is your favorite Balanchine ballet?
Bob Gottlieb [01:07:25]:
I knew you would ask that if I gave you the opportunity. The thing is, first of all, you have to understand that Balanchine obsessed people, particularly certain critics, have spent a lot of their lives playing Desert Isle and Balanchine. Which five ballets? Which ten ballets? Which 20 ballets? Which 30 ballets would you choose for me? The reason it's hard to answer is that at different times in my life, I've had different favorite Balanchine ballets. When I was very young. When I was 1718. The beginning of New York City Ballet. It was Bize Symphony and C. It was so thrilling, it was so fabulous. Everyone was so great, and it was so compressed on the City Ballet stage. Everybody couldn't fit on we did it on that.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:08:17]:
We did it on that city center. Yeah.
Bob Gottlieb [01:08:19]:
So you know what that was like. Also, we didn't have a company for it, so people. Were doubling, but it was thrilling, it was overwhelming. And it went on and on and on and on. And you went out flying. Other times in my life, certainly, I had a Ballet Imperial phase.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:08:43]:
That's my favorite.
Bob Gottlieb [01:08:44]:
Yes.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:08:44]:
I love it.
Bob Gottlieb [01:08:45]:
It had been out of the repertory and he brought it back for Suzanne and it was no longer called Ballet Imperial. Chaikovsky piano can share her number, too. No fun to type out when you're programmed. It's just overwhelming.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:09:06]:
It's beautiful.
Bob Gottlieb [01:09:07]:
So I went through that phase, which lasted for years. I wouldn't say favorite. It's not quite well, it's personal. Yes, that's favorite. But when you say greatest, that changes, I think. There is no greater ballet than the Four Temperaments. It's the first of his black and white ballets, although it didn't start out as a black and white ballet, it started out with the most impossible costumes in the history of dance. But to me, it's the turning point in ballet. In all of ballet, there's nothing like it before and after it, everything is possible. So to me, it is a more important work than, say, agon or episodes, which I love. So I've had I always have a four teeth. On the other hand, I have been present at times in the New York City Ballet when I thought it was dead. It was so terrible that you couldn't look at it. And very recently, it was in horrible disrepair, mostly because we didn't have a good sanguine. Without a good sanguine, you do not have fortes. And suddenly Sarah Murns, not my favorite dancer, was basically thrown on and she brought it to life. It was suddenly thrilling again. And I've seen it. I know I've lived through three deaths of the Four T's. So it's clearly such a great work that it can't be suppressed permanently, try as the company may do to suppress it.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:10:57]:
Ballets.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:10:58]:
Yeah.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:10:59]:
It's not going anywhere.
Bob Gottlieb [01:11:01]:
I'm trying to think of other ballets that were my favorites at any given well, whenever I see Libus Leader, it's my favorite ballet of all time, because how not when it's done. Well, look, they're all how can Nutcracker? Everybody tends to forget what a great ballet Nutcracker is.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:11:21]:
Yeah, it really is.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:11:22]:
Pornography is so good. I mean, if there's anything that you're going to get saddled with dancing 50 times a year, it should be Waltz the flowers. No, I mean the girls. Even though, of course, that wears on.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:11:36]:
You, it's still but there's always that first performance every year of flowers, where you're like, god, this choreography is so good. It's like always that moment.
Bob Gottlieb [01:11:45]:
And then you get to be the mother, if you're lucky. It's a wonderful part.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:11:52]:
That's my most favorite part.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:11:53]:
I was also going to say that you were talking about doubling up in Sympany and See, which, of course, Miami City Valley also had to do Rebecca famously, because she's medium height, she learned every movement and during one rehearsal in the studio, because this would not be possible on stage. Rebecca did all four movements because someone was sicker.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:12:13]:
And then Roma would stop and she'd.
Bob Gottlieb [01:12:14]:
Be like all four movements?
Michael Sean Breeden [01:12:17]:
All four movements.
Bob Gottlieb [01:12:17]:
That's a first.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:12:19]:
It was so crazy, but it was really fun. I'll never forget it. I'm glad you remember that, too. That's fun.
Bob Gottlieb [01:12:25]:
No, it's favorite ballets. And then you can see LIBA's Leader boring when it's not danced. Well, that's horrible.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:12:36]:
Okay, this is two questions. First question. Is there a ballet right now that you feel like is sort of teetering on the edge of extinction?
Bob Gottlieb [01:12:43]:
Well, there are ballets teetering on the edge. It's not what I feel. Bureau Fantastic was extinct until they did it either once or twice at the Balanchine centenary.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:12:56]:
Yes.
Bob Gottlieb [01:12:57]:
Nobody noticed.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:12:58]:
Well and depending on who you ask, it was not done very well.
Bob Gottlieb [01:13:02]:
That could very well, I saw it I don't remember particularly, but you see, I saw it every other night because from 1948, when it was made 51, or whatever year it was 49, it was constantly programmed. We didn't have much of a repertory. It was a tiny repertory right out.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:13:22]:
It's the best closer.
Bob Gottlieb [01:13:25]:
And then it faded away. I don't know if Balanchine got bored with it or maybe he never really liked it after Tanny was gone. I don't really know. Then they did it. Then that vanished. Then they did it at SAB. Did you see that performance?
Michael Sean Breeden [01:13:42]:
We saw video after I left SAB that they did it. So I didn't see it live or I didn't dance in it. Because when Miami brought it, many of the people just come from SAB.
Bob Gottlieb [01:13:53]:
When I saw it at the SAB, I came back to Miami and said to Eddie, we have to do the spelling. It is so wonderful and wonderful for us now. You see, it was pre Eddie. He was never in it. Yeah, he may have arrived when they were still doing it once in a while, but it was not a ballet from his period.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:14:14]:
Sure.
Bob Gottlieb [01:14:15]:
He said, I got a tape, and we all looked at it. And of course, we fell in love with it. Now, you weren't there the first time we did it.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:14:28]:
I was there both times.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:14:29]:
We were there both times.
Bob Gottlieb [01:14:29]:
The first time we did it, as you may remember, the audience didn't really take to it. But when we brought it back, because Lordis loved it, it exploded. Now, was it a better cast? Probably.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:14:43]:
I was doing the principal, so I would say yes.
Bob Gottlieb [01:14:46]:
Second cast. Yes, that's right. You did the Jerry roll.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:14:51]:
Yeah.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:14:52]:
And we did it in New York, too. And that seemed to be a huge reception as well.
Bob Gottlieb [01:14:56]:
Huge because for New York it was an unknown Balanchine ballet.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:15:02]:
Right.
Bob Gottlieb [01:15:04]:
Why companies around the country don't well, it's big and it's expensive. Right. There are a lot of costumes, needs a lot of people so it hasn't been jumped on, but I think it's a masterpiece. Now, I have to say, I know you did first movement. First Movement has never looked as good as it did, no matter who has done it.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:15:30]:
I'm not going to take offense if.
Bob Gottlieb [01:15:31]:
You say don't, because you were not Jerry and Tanny. I mean, Jerry was a wonderful dancer, a wonderful character.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:15:39]:
He brought back Balanchine. Brought back Prodigal for Jerry.
Bob Gottlieb [01:15:42]:
Right, absolutely. And he was fantastic in it, deeply moving and wonderful. He was just a wonderful dancer, but not a classical dancer. He was wonderful and fancy free. I saw the first cast. This was long before I was at City Ballet. He was a wonderful dancer. So Bore and Tanny was unique, as I've said before, and they loved each other. They were very, very close, personally, so you could see they together in that were comparable to Eddie and Patty in Rubies.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:16:24]:
That makes sense.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:16:24]:
I like I can see that.
Bob Gottlieb [01:16:26]:
Yeah. You're never going to see it again, whereas you're going to see Tall Chief Rolls. Everybody has danced.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:16:32]:
Tall, Chief, Rolls, Sugar Pump Fairy, everyone. And their mama has danced firebird.
Bob Gottlieb [01:16:41]:
He brought that for her. He put that on for her. Whereas a role like Scotch Symphony, which was the last role he made on her, and I don't know why, because it was not good for her. Scotch can be done by a million people, and it doesn't lose its quality because it wasn't specifically Tall Chief. He wanted to make it. The music is wonderful. He had an idea. But how many dancers have I seen do it wonderfully? Tens, if not scores. It just suits a lot of dancers.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:17:16]:
Right, interesting. Let's talk about ballets that are actually extinct. If you could bring one back, what would it be?
Bob Gottlieb [01:17:26]:
Well, I think it would be the better or the best of his bezet la face. All we have is the thing, the divertis mon, the Deveresmont. Now, we have just done it, as you well know, the Rotmanski version, which has it's mostly wonderful. I think I have problems with bits of it, but I know Arlene felt it was the great missing valet, so maybe I'm biased in that direction. See, to a certain extent, we have seen the extinct ballets, because he cannibalized.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:18:08]:
It's true. Yeah.
Bob Gottlieb [01:18:10]:
So you don't want to see, like, bits of laval or not even what am I thinking of? But it'll come to it, doesn't he cannibalized. So you don't want to see those older ballets that he cannibalized. And he didn't want to see them, certainly. Now, when we get to the Raymonda, we get to something like Justin's new version. Did you see it? I'm talking about two different things. I'm taking it back. What did we just see? The Ramonda.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:18:49]:
That we just saw the Ramonda. Cortage.
Bob Gottlieb [01:18:51]:
Cortez.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:18:51]:
Cortez.
Bob Gottlieb [01:18:52]:
When we get to Cortage, he has already done it three times. Use that music. But it was there. So if Cortez disappeared tomorrow, I would applaud. People don't want to think that way or talk that way, and they're shocked, but I no need ever to see it.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:19:12]:
I prefer Poddies, which is more similar to Cortez than Ramonda variations, I think Ramonda and Potides can coexist, but no, Cortez in the mix and throws the balance.
Bob Gottlieb [01:19:23]:
Right. And as for Raimunda as a whole, have you ever seen a complete nine act, 14 act?
Michael Sean Breeden [01:19:29]:
I don't think I could put myself through that.
Bob Gottlieb [01:19:31]:
You could. Well, I will tell you if you want to know. Masochism at a time. At one point, maybe it was Ballet Theater brought Norayev's Ramonda, there were five casts, and Arlene and I went to all five of them consecutively. And a more boring ballet. You cannot imagine it's a ballet. The story part is dopey, endless, unconvincing boring. And then there's this great music, which everybody loves, starting with Balanchine. And then you wait for those moments. It was a nightmare of horror, but there we did it. I was young in those days.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:20:26]:
Just to bring it back a little bit to talking about Bore, that has one of the most incredible finales ever. Balanchine is obviously so well known for his slam bang finishes. Diamonds also has a really extraordinary finale.
Bob Gottlieb [01:20:38]:
Theme.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:20:39]:
Theme. Oh, my God. Western symphony goes on. So is there one? If you had to choose one that you feel like favorite balancing finale?
Bob Gottlieb [01:20:49]:
Well, it would again depend on when I was 19. It would have been beze because I hadn't seen the rest at that point. No, there isn't one. It's whichever arm I'm seeing, he is on such a level that when he is at his best, which is more of the time than any other choreographer in the history of the world. How can you compare? Can you say that? We haven't even mentioned Verimento number 15. What a great ballet that is that doesn't have a finale, right. It's just a sublime work of art. So how can you say Deveremento is Fortes greater than they're not comparable, right?
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:21:38]:
They're totally different.
Bob Gottlieb [01:21:39]:
So what you're left with is saying, here are Bouncine's 20 greatest ballads, and they're all great when you're seeing them, if they're danced well, right? And they're mostly are, they dancer proof.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:21:55]:
I wanted to ask what you think as we're talking about these ballets that are in peril. What can our generation do to help preserve the Balanchine legacy, but also make it still vivid for today's audiences?
Bob Gottlieb [01:22:14]:
Well, it is a gigantic problem and everyone is aware of it, including the Balanchine Trust and all the people who most worship him. And the reason is that you're one generation away and two generations away and three generations away, and it dilutes and different performers come in and do it their way. But he knew that he didn't think it could be preserved. At least he said he didn't think it could be preserved. Although he arranged things so that after his death, the institutions would be there to keep it going, including the Balanchine Trust in the way it's run. The biggest problem, and I've written it many times, so I don't mind saying it is Peter's decision, for whatever his reasons, not to have the great Balanchine dancers on whom the roles were created coach, and that has done tremendous damage to the future. I am not an anti Peter person, although I've often written negatively about him personally, I was very fond of him and we spent a great deal of time together and he's done some wonderful things, starting with keeping the New York City Ballet afloat and in pretty good shape. It changes. It changes, but that has been a disaster because the coaches we have now just do not know. And you know perfectly well that certain dancers in certain roles have sneaked off to be coached by certain X principles in roles that were created on them, because they need the input. That's why Eddie, when he was running Miami, and Lordis, now bring people down, because I claim you were both there. I think you were both there when we were doing at one point we were putting Sonombula back on, or whatever it was, and I wanted Allegra There.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:24:32]:
I remember that.
Bob Gottlieb [01:24:33]:
I didn't want Allegra There to give specific coaching, which she did do. But since I believe so strongly that Balanchine extracted what he wanted from the dancers, now, it wasn't made on her, remember, but it was brought back after all those years. And she was not like Danila, the original, so it was like a new ballet when he put it on for her. And I believed that for dancers, just to see her, to sense her, how she moved, how she reacted, was a big plus, that it would somehow osmos into them. I myself paid to king her down because we didn't have, of course, as always, we didn't have a penny in the bank, or in the payroll for that matter. And I felt that again and again, and Eddie felt that. That's why, as you know, when he first did Jewels, at different times, he had Patty Filet and Suzanne Come and Coach. So I think it's crucial to have those dances now. That's going to be too late very soon. How many people are left? Allegra who's left from the great days? Eddie, Patty and Suzanne.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:26:00]:
That makes sense.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:26:02]:
This is maybe a light question to finish on, but since we brought up Meryl doing every one of the Jewels, is there a dancer today that you would enjoy singing in all three at City Ballet? Any company, any company in the world that you would like to see?
Bob Gottlieb [01:26:18]:
First of all, no company in the world should be able to do Jewels as well as City Ballet. Miami can. But Miami is limited in the number of dancers. We have 50 dancers and they have 90 or whatever. The number is 120. Who knows? And they have waves of polished dancers coming out of the school. We are looking for the odd polished dancer. So it's a very different thing. I don't think we have a dancer who could do all three. The one who I think has the great, like the most possible is Sterling Hilton because she's the smartest. Sterling, she is the smartest and she works the hardest and she grows in roles. I mean, I remember seeing the first time she did calcium nightlight. It was so terrible. I think. Did she do it with Fairchild? I can't remember. That would have been yeah, they were both so terrible. They didn't have a clue as they were adorable. Now, calcium is many things, but adorable is not one of them. Remember? It was Heather and Danny Duell. By the end of the season. I mean, I really ripped it apart and I think others did too. By the end of the season, Sterling had figured it out. She wasn't right for it. She wasn't terrific in it, but it was completely respectable because she works and she works and she studies and she goes to the library and she looks at tapes and she thinks and she has that wonderful instrument, physical instrument. And she's so pretty, but she doesn't get by on her prettiness. Now, I've seen her in roles, and I think she has a long way to go. Like sonombula something else that she did fairly recent, but she will get there. So I think she could make a stab at doing a good job at all three roles. What do you think?
Michael Sean Breeden [01:28:46]:
I also think that Sterling is a good choice because she's petite, so she can do Patty rolls because no one really you don't necessarily want to see. I mean, height and long, everything is beautiful, but Sterling is petite, but with an illusion of length.
Bob Gottlieb [01:29:05]:
Yeah, like Patty.
Michael Sean Breeden [01:29:06]:
Like Patty.
Bob Gottlieb [01:29:07]:
Patty was tiny. Her she's nothing like Patty in her her plastique or her manner. I think she could I would like to see her in all three roles. I would be happy to see her in all three roles. I'm not sure even which of the emeralds probably the violet role, but who knows?
Michael Sean Breeden [01:29:28]:
Well, thanks so much for talking to us today.
Bob Gottlieb [01:29:32]:
Programs worth.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:29:33]:
I think that's great. That's great for us. Thank you so much.
Bob Gottlieb [01:29:36]:
You know, I love to talk, and as you see, I can talk. But you knew that I've talked at you for years.
Rebecca King Ferraro [01:29:48]:
Thank you for joining us this week. If you are new to our podcast, we invite you to check out some of our other interviews with the ballet world's best and brightest. If you like the pod or even if you don't, we would truly appreciate it if you could take a second to review us on itunes and let us know what you think. Thank you again for listening and supporting conversations on dance.